Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: Welcome back to another episode of the Game Changer Unlocked, where we explore the minds and methods behind true transformation in leadership, performance and purpose. I'm your host, Bryan Fetzer. Today's guest is a visionary leader, best selling authority, creative force, and one of the most dynamic communicators of our time, Erwin McManus. Born in El Salvador, raised in the United States, he has really made his journey anything but ordinary. He's a lead pastor of Mosaic Church in Los Angeles, a global voice in faith and innovation, and the author of powerful books like the Way of the Warrior, the Genius of Jesus, and his latest Mind Shift. But Erwin isn't just a pastor. He's a filmmaker, a fashion designer, an entrepreneur, high level consultant to the NFL, to the Pentagon, and leaders in business and culture. At the core of all of it is one mission. Helping people break free from limitations and unlock the future that they were created for. Today we're driving, diving into leadership, adversity, mindset, and the deep inner work required to lead others. Well, get ready for an honest, powerful conversation with someone who doesn't just teach transformation.
He lives it. Erwin, thank you so much for joining, joining us today.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: Hey, so glad to be with you, Bryan.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: Hey, so I want to talk about your, your background and we, we, we were sharing just a little bit ago that, you know, growing up in Miami and how did your early life, you know, journey kind of shape how you approach leadership right now?
[00:01:52] Speaker A: Well, that's, that's a kind of a big question in so many ways. Right. Because all of life shapes who we are. And I guess the big strokes are I was born in San Salvador, El Salvador, and I'm an immigrant to the United States. Spanish was my first language. I learned English here, moved to Queens first from El Salvador, I believe it was, and then Miami and lived there till I was around 15 years old.
And some of the personal, you know, dynamics are I never knew my real father. My mom and my father separated when she was pregnant with me.
And so I grew up not really having that connection. My mom remarried to a man named Bill McManus. And so I think in that I always had a sense of disconnection, being from a different country.
Even my name is an alias that I was given later not knowing my real father. There was just a lot of points where my own sense of identity, my sense of self was looking for a place to connect.
And I would say I was not a leader and growing up, but I was not a follower. I was completely disconnected. I was very much like a lone wolf, kind of guy, super quiet, super introverted, incredibly reclusive.
I ended up in a psychiatric chair by the time I was 10 years old and in and out of a hospital. During that time, I barely graduated from high school. I went through school with a state, a straight D average.
I didn't go to college right away. I just worked endless odd jobs until I came to a point of being at the end of myself going, I got to do something with my life.
And that's when I begged my way into college and found I, I could not qualify to go to school. I mean, I literally walked into administration office and convinced them to let me into the university.
And I think that's when I began to access different components of my own agency at a higher level. When I decided I needed to do something with my life, I needed to make a change. I needed to create a course that created a future I wanted.
And, and so that ended up being kind of the beginning point. And then in college, I became a person of faith.
And that for me was very, very pivotal because I wasn't really looking for faith. I was looking for significance. I was looking for meaning.
I was trying to determine whether my life had any intention or purpose.
And, and for me, faith was the culmination of, you're created with intention. You're here to make a difference. And it's your personal responsibility to access your gifts and talents, your intelligence, whatever, you know, components you have that make you the highest version of yourself and, and to use that to make the world better. And, and so that was sort of my short version journey toward my, my, I think my, the beginning of my leadership experience.
[00:04:55] Speaker B: You mentioned some mental health kind of struggles early on.
You know, how, how did, how do you personally currently today take care of those.
The issues that we all deal with?
[00:05:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't really know if I consider those things issues the way other people do.
I consider them ingredients in what makes me uniquely me.
And so I think a lot of people think you have the healthy you and then you have the unhealthy you.
You have the, the person that you like and the person you don't like or however you want to describe that. And I just think it's a part of the cocktail that makes you really, really unique. So I don't, I don't think of myself as, oh, when I'm, when I'm happy, I'm, I'm the, the version of me that's the best.
And if I'm sad or disappointed, that's that, that's something I need to work through and get out of. I actually think the full spectrum of human emotions are what make life so interesting.
And so, and, and to me it's what makes life valid, that I can feel deeply. And so I don't really think of it as mental health issues. I think of them as a, as a spectrum of human experiences that allow me to become a more textured, interesting and, and deep human being.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: How does your faith tie into that, into, into, you know, building resilience kind of in a, in a tough time. I mean, you described, I mean what you described is going in, going through the early stages of life, definitely not, not normal and definitely not the average.
But you know, and you didn't really, you said you didn't have faith at that point in time.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: Well, I didn't say I didn't have faith.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: I didn't have belief.
[00:06:44] Speaker B: Big difference. Very big difference.
[00:06:45] Speaker A: There is a difference. And I think a lot of people, when they think about faith, they're actually talking about belief and that they have a certain belief system that they believe in. A religion or a philosophy or ideology.
And I think actually the dynamic of faith is a more powerful force and in that, and then maybe how it shapes self belief.
Because if I believe in God, it doesn't necessarily change the way I live my life, but if I believe in what God says about me, it changes the way I live my life.
And so there's a, I think there's a dynamic and profound connection between our need for identity and our connection to God.
Because if we're, I think every human being searching for identity, we're all trying to figure out who we are, what we are, where we're from, what we're about. And if it's based on success or wealth or fame or power or, or accomplishment, that identity is so fragile that the moment something goes wrong, you have a, a shattered identity.
But if, but for me, what happened was it shifted my entire journey for toward worth that now I believed that I was fully and completely loved, that I was unconditionally accepted, that I didn't have to work for love, I could work from love. I didn't have to, to, you know, strive for significance. I could work from significance. And, and so all those for me, world fundamental shifts and they really made a huge difference because I made a lot of decisions that people didn't like or didn't believe in or thought I was out of my mind. I mean, if you're going to live a pioneering life, if you're going to be at all inventive or entrepreneurial or innovative, the majority of people are going to disagree with you. True. And if your identity is rooted in how other people feel, you know, about you and what they think about you and whether they accept you and then you actually limit your God given capacity. And so for me, the shift was my acceptance and my value, My identity is rooted in the relationship I have with Jesus Christ.
And now I can, I can, I can go for broke.
Because failing isn't going to change my value.
Failing isn't going to change my identity.
My identity is same when I have huge success and my identity is the same when I have massive failure. And I've had both.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's a very interesting perspective to put it there. I mean, and we're all going to have failures without question.
Interesting.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: Very, very.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: There's, there's so much to unpack with, with all the stuff that you're saying when, I mean, you deal with leaders constantly and dealing with the struggles that they feel when you just said that, you know, entrepreneurs, people that are making those decisions, what are words of wisdom, you know, to help them under that pressure where they're, you know, they're dealing with making a choice that's going to be unpopular, per se.
[00:10:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, there's so many different dynamics involved in those kind of moments, but usually I would say close to 100% of the time I'm going to go at that high level. When you're dealing with a high level leader, they already know what to do.
And so you're not really taking them through a process to figure out what to do.
They're trying to figure out how to mitigate the consequences.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: Very true, very true statement.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And, and, and the reason, the only reason they would ever get paralyzed is when they're trying to control things that are outside of their control.
And, and so the shift you have to help a person make is don't look for the answer that will give you the most successful.
Look for the answer that is true to who you are.
Wow. Because if you choose a pathway that is not true to who you are and you succeed, you will never enjoy a single moment of that success.
But if you choose a pathway that is true to who you are, even in failure, you'll have a deep resonance with the value and importance of what you did.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: That's awesome. That, that's.
We'll be right back with more from Erwin McManus. Up next, we'll talk about leading through adversity and what it takes to stay steady. When Everything around you feels very uncertain. I'll be right back.
[00:11:57] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Game Changer Unlocked. Loving what you're watching? Don't miss a moment of the Game Changer Unlocked or any of the favorite. Your favorite NOW Media TV shows live or on demand, anytime, anywhere. Download the free Now Media TV app on Roku or iOS and enjoy instant access to the full lineup of bilingual programming both in English and Spanish.
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Welcome back to the Game Changer Unlocked. I'm here with Erwin McManus. And now we're going to dive into the art of leading through adversity and lessons that really define resilient leadership.
You know, every leader, you know, faces setbacks, pressure, criticism, and kind of sets them apart, is not avoiding the struggles, but how they respond to them and how they kind of help their teams rise stronger.
Erwin, what's the hardest leadership challenge that you've ever faced and what kind of helped you through it?
[00:13:13] Speaker A: Well, whenever you ask a question like what's the singular challenge, hardest thing, or what's, you know, the best thing or the worst thing, my, my brain instantly paralyzes because it's very hard for me to categorize things in that way.
[00:13:29] Speaker B: What's one of them then?
[00:13:30] Speaker A: Yeah, mostly because there's just so many of them that have been incredibly difficult and, and the one that's most present always feels like the worst one, you know, but honestly, I think the, the most challenging part of my role as a leader is when you come to care about someone very, very deeply.
You, you have a, an honest, genuine relationship with them, and they are not meeting the expectations or performance level required to stay on the team.
I find firing people who are not likable, who are offensive or arrogance or that's not hard.
[00:14:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:25] Speaker A: You know, because if you fire for character, you just feel like you just, you've done a service to the world, you know, and, but when you have to terminate someone or let someone go that is really, you know, a very, like, kind person or just a person you really love and, and, and appreciate.
But they aren't. They're either not willing, I was going to say, or able. But I'm going to mostly say willing. I almost put nothing into the category of able.
And we're. They're not willing to make the really difficult internal structural choices to elevate to the level that the organization needs. That's when it's really, really hard.
And I find those to be incredibly difficult. You know, I also think that if you were just really getting down to the nitty gritty on a human level, the thing that's most painful is whenever you feel a sense of betrayal.
And I talk to so many leaders. In fact, I hardly know an entrepreneur that has not lost one of their companies to a business partner, to a best friend, to someone they founded the company with and later betrayed them.
And I find the story of betrayal to be one of the most common business stories from entrepreneurs.
And. And I think a huge part of it is when you come together specifically for outcome goals.
There isn't that same connection that will help you stay together not through failure, but actually through success.
But when you partner with someone or it's. It's the friendship, it's the. It's the journey together, it's the excitement of success and failure together that binds you. Those are the people who stay with you.
And. And one of the most challenging things is, you know, people are different on a spectrum of trust.
Some people have low, low, low trust. Their basic structure in life is, I don't trust anyone. You have to prove to me you're trustworthy. And then you have people on the other end of the spectrum says, I trust everyone, and you have to prove to me that you're untrustworthy.
And I fall on that side of the spectrum. I trust everyone, and they have to prove to me they're untrustworthy.
And so one of the great challenges is you end up trusting people that really did not merit or deserve your trust.
And what you have to really work through in process as a person is, are you going to change your mind or keep trusting people?
Because otherwise that person's actions will change who you are inherently.
And even with my team, they'll say, hey, you know, you're just so open and you trust so many people. And. And I tell them, you know, every system I know that grows in a really beautiful way has a high level of trust.
And so I would rather have a high level of trust with an occasional betrayal than a low level of trust missing out on an endless number of incredible people who are worthy of that trust.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: That's a great way to look at it, an incredible way to look at it, because it is. It is so true that those two ways that you just described, I can see in so many different people that I know. And it's very interesting to kind of differentiate. Differentiate between the two when you start, because we're talking about faith and we're talking about the secular side of things with leadership.
Does leading, you know, under pressure in the secular world differ from in the spiritual world, in your opinion?
[00:18:07] Speaker A: That's funny, Bryan, because, you know, I think here's the secret.
It's all spiritual. There is no secular world, and every human being is inherently spiritual. And even if you don't believe in God, you might be listening, and you don't think there is a God. You're still spiritual because you believe in love.
You. You believe in the future. I mean, think about this.
We build our lives on a, on a belief system that something will exist that doesn't exist. It's called tomorrow.
So all of life is inherently spiritual.
The greatest entrepreneurs believe they can take the invisible and translate it into the visible.
The greatest inventors believe the impossible can be made possible.
And leaders believe that a world that does not exist can be created, become the future that we live in.
All of life is spiritual, and it's a matter of translating it out of religious language into human language.
And so for me, I don't change my language. I use the same language on Sunday that I use on Monday.
If it isn't inherently human, it's just a cliche. It's just a social construct, and it becomes empty religion.
[00:19:29] Speaker B: It's, it's definitely. I think that's a, A different. It's going to lead to my next question. I think it's a different mindset shift from what most people would think and with using the word mindset. And that's your latest book, mind Shift.
You know, talk to. Talk to. Talk to me about, you know, about the changing the way that we think, you know, and what's, what's a mind shift or mindset shift? I should say that, that leaders, you know, should make.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Actually, the, the last two books I've written are mind shift. And then I wrote a book called the Seven Frequencies of Communication on human communication and human frequencies.
Part of the reason I wrote Mind Shift is that there, there's this interesting dynamic that genius is oftentimes just one iteration off of stupidity.
And, and, or if you want to be more, more gracious of normacy. Like, a lot of times people feel like I just don't know how to make those breakthrough ideas. I don't know how to get to that higher level of self. But it's not this exponential shift. It's a very small incremental shift.
And, and so what I chose in mind shift is I, I chose about eight different mental shifts that if you make these slight shifts, it will radically alter your life. It's just like a, you know, space shift leaving from the Earth, trying to get to Mars.
And even the smallest incremental error will send you out into hyperspace and you'll never get to your destination. And it's the same way with all these other aspects in life.
You know, chapters one and three and mind shift are almost a juxtaposition. Chapter one is it's all about people.
But chapter three is you can't take everyone with you.
And when you take those two principles and begin applying them in leadership, one that'll drive you insane.
Because what I find is some people are very high on. It's all about people.
Then they're very low on. You can't take everyone with you.
And then some people are very, very high on you can't take everyone with you, but they're very, very low on. It's all about people.
And so the shift isn't always in the same direction. It's really paying attention to what your natural inclination is and then make the adjustment that you need to make as you move through. So I just chose these small incremental mental structures that I saw change my life and change the life of an endless number of people. And, and that's why I, I thought mind shift was important, is that it's almost. It's not simplistic, but it, but, but it. I think simplicity is elegant, and there's an elegant simplicity to the book that if you just begin to apply these, you. You'll have a radical shift in the quality of your own life.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: That. That is.
Wow.
[00:22:32] Speaker A: Ve.
[00:22:33] Speaker B: Very, very, very deep. And, and again, like I said, a different way of thinking than most people kind of look at just life and kind of look at how, how things operate.
I, I absolutely love that. One last question in this segment and, and then we'll, we'll jump into the next topic. But you know, when, when things go wrong with somebody, and I think this goes back to what you're saying with that mind shift. You know, how, how do you, how do you kind of give that advice to get them to kind of stay focused on their goals or their mission as opposed to deviating so far off the plan?
[00:23:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I think one of the challenges is a lot of times when we're coaching people, we focus on what they need to do, and really the focus has to be on who they choose to become, because you can help a person make a right choice, but unfortunately there are 5,000 choices ahead of them.
And so if you help them make the right choice, but you do not help them choose the right person.
They'll make the other 4,000 decisions so badly they'll destroy the good one you just made.
And so you have to make a shift. For instance, just a small thing, like one of the mantras in my head over decades is choose a life of intention, not a life of obligation.
And so the moment I feel obligation, I know I'm deviating the course from the course.
And I can tell you how many times I've made decisions in my life out of pure obligation. How about you?
[00:24:23] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. 100.
You do it on a regular basis.
[00:24:28] Speaker A: So.
And it's only the decisions you make out of obligation that have the potential for regret.
And, and that's, and that's why sometimes I have to reverse with people. When I was, somebody asked me to coach this, this friend of theirs, and the first thing they said to me is, well, we. And they were, they were, they were actually Christians and, and this guy was a pastor. And he said, well, you know, we made this choice, but we didn't have time to pray about it.
And, and I stopped him and I said, we can't go any further.
He goes, what? I thought you were going to listen to my story and help me process as I go. We can't go any further. You. You had time is what. What do you mean? I said you, you had time to pray about it. You're trying to inject something into your past so that you can release yourself from.
And so you got to go back and deal with this. You had time. You chose not to. Or maybe you did pray and you just misheard what you. What God was saying you. Or maybe you prayed and still made a wrong choice. That's a human thing. That's a reality.
But don't say I didn't have time because you're abdicating all personal responsibility and so then you're powerless to make any changes in your life.
[00:25:45] Speaker B: Wow, that's some great wisdom.
Where, where can somebody learn, you know, learn more website books. Where can they get some of your work from?
[00:25:56] Speaker A: Sure, they can go to Erwin mcmanage.com I, I have an online mastermind that's global that people can join and we meet every week and have an hour session on subjects either on leadership, communication, character or big ideas. But also if you just go to my website, I've written 14 books on these different areas and love for people to pick them up.
[00:26:18] Speaker B: That would be awesome. Wa. We're going to be back with another segment with Erwin right after this.
Welcome back to the game Changer unlocked. I'm here with Erwin McManus. In our final segment, we're talking about, you know, what separates great leaders really from everybody else. And you know, one of the things, Erwin, that I wanted to ask about is self awareness of, you know, it's so important for leaders that want to grow. And you've kind of talked about the mind shift and kind of how, how the, they've got to think a little differently. But, you know, being self aware as a leader, can you kind of talk about the importance of that?
[00:27:18] Speaker A: Sure. You know, Bryan, one of the things we have in common is both of us use a lot of psychometrics. We, you know, design different assessments and, and help people become more self aware.
And the reason this question is such an interesting one is I think the reason psychometrics are both fascinating, valuable and popular is because we have a diminishing level of self awareness.
When we lived in tribes, we had really, really high self awareness because the community would tell you what you're good at. You're going to be a hunter, you're really good at hunting, you're not very good at hunting, you're going to be a farmer here. And you know, you're neither good at hunting or farming and you're going to do this and, and they would help you in that community discover what your gifts and talents are or help develop those gifts and talents necessary for survival once we move out of our need for survival. And the reason this is important is my wife one time said to me, do you think humans are capable of anything? And I said, I think humans are capable of anything necessary for survival.
And so the moment it's not necessary for survival, we lose its capacity.
So now that we have cell phones, no one can remember a phone number because we don't need those phone numbers for survival. We literally lose our mental structural capacity when it's no longer needed for survival.
And so it's one of those interesting things. So self awareness is essential for survival.
And what I find is interesting is when I give someone any assessment, doesn't even matter which one.
The only thing I'm looking for at first is whether it resonates with them.
I will have a large number of people over the years who would say something like, this thing is wrong, this test is wrong. I said, it's not a test, it's an assessment. You can't fail. You can't fail this, you know, and, and they go, yeah, but this isn't who I am. And then I'll say to them, well, then we, we have a dilemma. So here, here are the only options.
See, this assessment doesn't have any artificial intelligence of its own. It doesn't have the capacity to tell you anything that it doesn't know about you.
It only tells you what you know about you.
It only tells you what you said about you.
So if you think the response of this indicator is wrong, it's either a, you lied about yourself, so let's figure out why you lied about yourself because you lied to yourself about yourself, or B, you don't know yourself, you told the truth. And when you're looking at the truth, it doesn't look like you in your mind's eye, which tells me that you have, you are low on the spectrum of self awareness.
And what's really fascinating is I remember one time I gave an assessment to a person who was a extremely high.
I wouldn't say he's a narcissist, but he had all the narcissistic personality structures. Because we have to remember that these psychological designations aren't actual real things.
They're descriptions of human patterns of behavior, thought and internal structure. Now, this guy was an Olympic skier, and I thought he would be really upset when he saw his assessment.
He looked at it and he goes, this is exactly who I am.
Because it, and, and I actually really respect that guy because he has such high self awareness. He knows exactly who he is, and that's actually what's more dangerous. And so part of the reason self awareness is so important is you can't grow if you can't see yourself.
You cannot grow if you don't know yourself.
You cannot go somewhere if you do not know what the starting point is.
And, and, and, and so I don't know if your audience is familiar with Wayne Chapel, your, your, you know, I guess, business partner.
And, and I remember one time because I, I actually asked Wayne, I'd never interacted with anyone in the world as my coach for a moment because I coach people all over the world. And, and I went through a really traumatic situation and my wife said, you should go talk to someone.
So I asked my assistant, by the way, go find me the best in the world. Find me somebody who works with like Navy Seals or works with the, the top 1% in the world. And she came back with, with Wayne.
And, and at one point, Wayne says something. He, he's very diplomatic, at least with me. And, and he said, has anyone ever like, diagnosed you with. And then he kind of went and, and I said, no, but are you diagnosing me? As that.
And he goes, well, yeah, yeah, kinda. And I said, wayne, you're not going to scare me.
Like, I just turned 67 years old. There's nothing you can tell me about me that I don't have a little voice in my head saying, you know, that you're this.
[00:32:18] Speaker B: Right?
[00:32:19] Speaker A: So when someone says, hey, do you know, you know that you are what, ADHD inhibited with hyper focus. I going, you don't think I'm aware of the fact that I can write a book in 10 hours, but it takes me 10 years to write it, that I was running five companies at one time and I was still bored, you know, and, and, and one of the things that, with self awareness is that you can actually be the most powerful version of yourself if you know yourself and actually learn to be comfortable with the assets of who you are and then you work with the liabilities. One of the things that Wayne said to me, he goes, you're very low in assertiveness.
And, and it's, and it's funny because one of my highest values is kindness.
And, and I, I made a determination probably 40 years ago that I wanted to be the kindest person in the world.
Wow. But every virtue you take on has an Achilles heel.
If you don't, if you misapply it.
And I realized, oh, my high value for kindness. I saw such cruelty also diminished my need for assertiveness.
And so since that conversation, I've been pushing my assertiveness up because I realize, oh, I can still be kind and be assertive.
It's so hard for me to say, I want to eat pizza tonight or I want Chinese.
Even in simple little decisions every day, if I feel like it might make someone unhappy, it's like brutally painful for me, except when I'm in my leadership mode.
Then all of a sudden it doesn't matter.
But I realize that. And I think that this is why self awareness is so important. Because if other people know you better than you know yourself, they don't know how to help you. They don't know what to do with you.
And if, when you can see yourself, well, then you can decide, I like myself, I'm good with where I am, or I want to change and grow.
And you know, at this stage in life, and I just turned 67 last week, I, I have so many areas of my life that I'm so excited about growing in so many areas of my life. I go, oh, there's just so much room for growth, so much potential to live at a higher and more optimal Level. And, and, and am I willing to take on the discipline, to take on the internal structures to elevate even more in my life? I wouldn't be able to make those choices without self awareness and I think it's really, really important.
[00:34:56] Speaker B: One, one last quick question. I, I, I think it could be quick.
When you'd mentioned somebody, when you say, when you tell somebody something they probably don't want to hear or kind of shy about like getting the answer to something.
How do most people react when, as a, as a leadership coach, when you say, hey, I think you are X or you know, I see these qualities, what's the, what's the normal reaction or is there a normal action?
[00:35:27] Speaker A: You mean when you're telling us something positive or something negative or both?
[00:35:31] Speaker B: One of the, I probably, I'd probably say something negative. More so than positive.
[00:35:35] Speaker A: It depends. It's interesting because if you have a person with a high level of success who lacks self awareness, what happens is they have huge financial success, organizational success, but their people success is a zero.
They leave a trail of blood all behind them. Their marriages are disaster, their kids hate them and they don't understand why their family doesn't appreciate them as much as their, their stock value appreciates them.
And so a lot of times when I work with someone, it's very hard for them to see themselves. It's really difficult. And that's why, you know, I mean, one of the great privileges I've had in my life is to work with some of the most successful people in the world and you know, getting paid six figures to coach them.
And, and the, the only real value I bring is that I'm not afraid to be fired, is that I'm going to tell them the truth.
And, and the ones who want that truth, they want, they need that mirror because they're, they refuse to stay where they are. They're the ones that really make tremendous progress.
[00:36:45] Speaker B: That is so true. When you can, when you can give advice or you can make decisions where there's no fear behind it.
[00:36:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:51] Speaker B: That you're not worried about what somebody says or the outcome. You can be very direct and very honest and be, I think, a lot more effective without question.
[00:37:01] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that's why it's so hard. Marriages, it's one of the hardest reasons that marriages struggle is that it's hard to tell your partner the truth because you're afraid of the outcomes of that truth. Even if it's spoken in love and kindness. Yeah. Because you're afraid of a negative outcome.
So you're not willing to take the risk to get the most positive outcome because the most positive outcome comes when you are honest with each other and you have an authentic relationship. So many times we choose a lesser relationship to avoid the fear of consequence and conflict.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: Wow, Erwin, thank you so much for your openness and the wisdom today. You've definitely remind us that true leadership is not just about perfection, but self awareness encouraged. To kind of make a transformation from the inside out is the way I would kind of look at it for our audience. Remember that leadership begins with a mindset. The way you think shapes the way you lead and the way you lead really shapes the impact you leave behind to others. I'm your host Bryan Fetzer and this has been the Game Changer Unlocked. Until the next time, keep unlocking your potential and leading with purpose and make sure you check out great Erwin McManus.
Absolutely some incredible wisdom there. Till the next time, be blessed.
Welcome back to the Game Changer Unlocked. I'm your host Bryan Fetzer. Today we're diving into the future of sports business innovation with the true architect of the modern sports ecosystem, Andrew Petcash. He's the founder of Profluence Sports, a community led association built on education access support really to empower founders, investors and executives in sports. I'm so excited to dive in with Andrew and we're going to talk, you know, really about navigating through kind of a fragmented sports industry without really a central hub of collaboration. That's kind of where Andrew's story kind of puts forward. Andrew, thank you so much for joining us today.
[00:39:31] Speaker C: Thanks Bryan. Great to be here and excited to have this conversation. Long overdue.
[00:39:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you know, you started as an athlete and kind of evolved into the media kind of community building and you know, now leading pro fluent sports. You know, what are, what are some key experiences that kind of shaped your decision to kind of found pro fluence?
[00:39:53] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean it's a handful of things. Number one, you touched on athlete my whole life, you know, got the opportunity to end up playing basketball at Boston University Division 1 school in the Patriot League and we actually made March Madness my junior year, which was awesome. So I had a great career there and then have been building media things on the side since I was a teenager. So built a huge YouTube channel when I was 13 and then eventually led into learning how to build websites and social media and how to gain followers and then convert that into monetization and then eventually led to, well, I know how to build media well and I love Sports I've gone through that have connections there. How do we combine them and help, you know, the next generation of sports is going through so much transformation from youth sports all the way up through pros and, and everything that's going on. And so anyway, that's what led to profluence sports grid industry to be in media. I knew how to build and then you know, combine those things together and you know, have our. We're now the official sports business association and have 1100 members one year in across founders, investors, execs and sports. So it's been, it's been awesome. A lot of fun and still enjoying it day to day.
[00:41:08] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I mean profluence has grown, I. I would say pretty quickly from a small kind of community to I mean now the full fledged business association. I guess it's psba. Would that be right?
You know what catalyzed kind of the momentum for that?
[00:41:27] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean it was two things.
Number one, me on the media side just being able to be in front of everyone every day. Right. And that's the advantage of having your own content.
Hitting people with podcasts and newsletters and social media, it's like they can't. I get on calls all the time like, oh, I've heard your voice so many times and I feel like I see you everywhere. And so creating that familiarity, that trust and then building that reputation. And then my co founder is very good at the people side and so we've run a lot of in person events as well and bring people together and view the association, which it is, as a people product. And now we continue to layer on the tools and you know, products and services on the back end of it all. But the catalyst has just been people first add value 99% of the time and then you know, figure out with that extra 1% how to, you know, make it a business, which, you know, so far so good. We've done pretty successfully.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: Well, I mean, you know, you see so many different kind of areas of sport. What do you think the biggest challenge is that sports founders or investors face today?
What is that?
[00:42:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean there's a handful of challenges, but I'd say the biggest one and this goes across everything in sports and this was even something I'll pull it back to, even profluence. And when we were starting and thinking about is everything's so fragmented. You can see this across not only every vertical of sports. So when I say vertical, I'm talking about, you know, there's betting and then there's Fan engagement and then there's wearables and you know, the list goes on and on. And then when you go horizontal and you have also youth sports and college sports and then everything in between in pro sports, everything's fragmented. And so for us it would have been easy to pick one. Hey, we're going to go all in on youth sports or we're going to go all in on pro sports. But it was how do we be super broad? And so I'd say we're in the 99th percentile of basically every category. You can show up and talk about concussion technology or cricket or you know, emerging flag football, whatever it is, we can have a great conversation with you, which you know is the big opportunity for us. But it's also the challenge just to stay on top of everything. And you see that across all sports of and that's why there's a lot of consolidation and more capital coming in is everything's just so fragmented, which I don't think is going to last forever. It's going to condense in and that's why sports is such a great industry to be building in currently.
[00:44:03] Speaker B: You talked about the capital getting put into sports. I recently heard one of the best investments you could possibly do if you are have the wealth to do it is in the buying of protein because that value continues to go up, really doesn't go down.
Do you feel the same way that you know, as you're kind of in that kind of realm, talking to investors that you know more and more are investing into to buying teams or investing into sports specifically?
[00:44:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:33] Speaker C: And even this actually goes full circle from the last question. Even investing in sports is very fragmented. You have the groups that just invest minority stakes into pro teams. You have the early stage side, you, you have multi club ownership strategies, you have mixed strategies, you have just fitness, wellness, just betting. So even on the investment side there's so many different opportunities, just women's sports. We're seeing groups coming together, raising capital to just put into women's teams or women's startups that are based in sports.
And so yeah, I mean, I think there's good opportunities all across it. The team strategy is interesting. For some groups it's now going to be more typical to an S&P 500 type return schedule where it's going to keep growing but you're not going to have crazy returns. I think a lot of the opportunities on the emerging side and where sports is going and how all these other adjacent industries are using sports as a wedge to build their fans and consumer base and drastically increase market sizes. So off of the profluent Sports Business association, we also have a, have a fund, so we've made 16 investments out of that as well. And so we're not, we always say like we're putting our, our money where our mouth is out. We're not just talking about things. We're going and doing a lot of the things. So, so we have a team, but it's on the emerging side in the USL emerging soccer league. So that's where we personally see a lot of opportunity. But you got to, you got to be deep entrenched and in it to, you know, make it work. So yeah, sports, great place to be.
[00:46:04] Speaker B: The overall, the USL is just one of those leagues continue to skyrocket.
What I want to go back to the media side of things.
What you, you've done, what is somebody that or some the most interesting interview you've doing sports?
[00:46:26] Speaker C: Yeah, we've done almost 275 now.
So over a couple years span we try to do two a week.
And there's been so many fascinating ones. We've tackled every category you can possibly think of.
And from people rolling up golf courses to cricket to pro athletes to lawyers to PR firms to the big investors that are deploying billions of dollars and the ones that are deploying, you know, $100,000, we've covered the whole thing.
And I'd say they're all interesting in their own way. It's hard for me to pinpoint just one. I know that that's probably not the answer you're looking for, but that's why it works is I'm just naturally a curious person. And so I'm always looking for what's a unique angle on sports I haven't heard about or what's a unique strategy or a new sport or whatever it is. So I'd say a lot of the most interesting ones are in categories a lot of us don't think about. So for example, like a rodeo or you know, these alternative sports, there's huge markets, huge fan bases and it's wild to learn about them. Like just using rodeo, for example. I mean this is a multi, multi billion dollar industry and it's so fragmented and it's now tying in sports because it, you know, it technically is a sport and then there, there's groups pulling concerts into them. And so it's just fascinating when you start to get, when, when people think of sports, I think in soccer and football and basketball and then you go to India and they're thinking cricket. Right. But there's still so much in between all this. So those are, those are the most interesting ones for me.
[00:47:57] Speaker B: So talk to me about the, the, the business association.
How can that help a company investor kind of take their products or take what they're trying to do to the next level?
[00:48:12] Speaker C: Yeah, so we've sat on all sides of the table throughout the journey. So we've been investors, we've been founders, we've run agencies, we've built media, we've done everything. We've been athletes, coaches, we've basically done everything there is within sports.
And so it was, hey, how do we build the one spot where we can not only be that group or that voice, which is partly where this is leading over time as sports is transforming so much, but provide all the resources, the tools, the events, the networking. How do we create the all in one place for we call it the builders in sports, as you mentioned, the founders, investors, execs, and everything in between. How do we give you everything you need to succeed? And so that's what profluence has been. It started with a few things and we keep adding more and more tools and products and resources and events and you know, global chapters across not only the US but the world. And it's, hey, your membership is going to maximize your chance to succeed but also make a huge impact.
And so, you know, if you go into any of those buckets, founder, investor, exec, service provider, you know, we can name all the different things that are probably going to be the most value to you.
But that's what we've learned of like, hey, what do all these people need to succeed? Let's all bring it to one place. And that's what you get for being a part of the membership and, and then make it super affordable as well.
So there's other membership groups out there, but they're very much more social status or you know, former athletes and you know, they're costing in the, you know, thousands of dollars a year. Ours is only 500 a year and it's, you know, let's come build and you know, the case studies and testimonials we've had come out of it are incredible. It keeps you, keeps you going every day just to see, you know, just in the last week we had two early stage companies that have been members for over a year raise a couple million dollars for their ideas. And it's, you know, a lot of them will credit back what they've learned or who they've met through the association. So it's it's super cool.
[00:50:04] Speaker B: So, Andrew, for those who want to connect with you or learn more about Profluence or join the association for Sports Business, where can they go?
[00:50:12] Speaker C: Yeah, two main places. If you go, you can check me out on social media. LinkedIn and Twitter are probably the best places for the business side.
Andrew Petcash, you should find me easily. And then profluence.com you can learn all about the story of profluence and see everything that's included in the membership and view some of our past events and tools and resources and all that stuff. So those are the two best places for sure.
[00:50:39] Speaker B: Andrew, thank you for joining us today and sharing your incredible journey and insights and for building Profluent Sports into a global hub for sports business community.
It's a pretty amazing, pretty amazing venture that you've got going. We thank you and we're going to have you back on another segment here sometime soon that will end the show today. I'm your host, Bryan Fetzer and this has been the game changer unlocked. So excited for the guests today, Andrew Petcash from Profluent Sports and Erwin McManus, author, consultant and pastor. Such great wisdom and insight.
Until the next time, keep unlocking your potential and leading with a purpose.
[00:51:18] Speaker A: It.
